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Hayley Mary is the lead singer of award-winning Australian band The Jezabels. The first time I met Hayley was backstage at KOKO in February where I had a wee chat with the rest of the band before witnessing them set the famed London venue alight. Tracking their progress, we joined them again at The Ruby Lounge Manchester a month on, where Hayley acerbically spoke out on stage against the indifference shown by British press towards the band, apologizing for not talking much on stage, having been pegged as “too Australian” for British music journo taste. This was all prior to the band’s Australian Music Prize (Amp) win and their Garbage support slot announcement of course. Since those announcements, the mainstream British media and public have been playing catchup on a band who has long struggled to break the UK but who has successfully held our attention as one of the tightest bands out there, not to mention one of the nicest we’ve ever met. Considering their widespread success in Australia, we’ve been shocked by how little radio play the band still gets and how few people have even heard of them in the UK.
The night before Manchester, we had already captured our first glimpse of the Jezabels/Garbage lineup in Wolverhampton: earning themselves a barrelful of new fans, The Jezabels impressed the crowds to make way for Shirley Manson’s dramatic entrance and killer set. Now, sitting serenely together backstage at the Manchester Academy in an unusually zen atmosphere of calm, with the comforting hum of Manson and crew in the background, smashing the stage in their typical flamboyant style, Hayley and I chat all things Garbage, women in music, ethics and top tips on how to survive the touring lifestyle. Reflective and relaxed, Hayley gets right down to dinner and chat, leaving tour manager Neil to beaver away on his laptop and fellow Jezabels Sam Lockwood, Heather Shannon and Nik Kaloper to enjoy well-earned beers after delivering a blistering opening set. Oh, and we receive an unusual offer from Sam part-way through…
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So, you’re on tour with Garbage! What’s the atmosphere like backstage?
Oh, it’s pretty chilled. I mean, they’re big venues so it’s not like you’re in each other’s faces. We’ve got our own room, Shirley’s got her own room, the Garbage crew have their own room and so do the Garbage band – so everyone can have their own space if they want, but in the hallways it’s a free-for-all. They’re very talkative and lovely people, so it feels like you could go in and talk to them. I just went and stole some cokes from them actually because there was a diabetic selling merch, so I thought…
Your merch person?
No, theirs – not that anyone who’s a human being wouldn’t be fine with giving some cokes to a diabetic, but I think that if he wasn’t diabetic they would also be fine with it.
So how did the whole Jezabels/Garbage connection come about? Did you indicate that you wanted to support Garbage or were you approached?
It’s probably a bit of both. Well, I have no idea what their process is or the level of involvement they have in choosing the supports. But I have heard and did confirm with Shirley today that when you have females in the band, you have a little bit of an “up” on the other possible supports. So, it helped – well, it didn’t hinder, let’s put it like that.
Right, they’re known for that I guess.
Yeah, you can sort of tell. The more I think about it the more it makes sense, but I don’t know if they would have thought about it this much. I guess all the people working with us and them were like, “semi-pop, semi-alternative female-fronted band…”
Because you maybe have a similar vibe?
Yeah, but the music is not actually that similar so it won’t be TOO similar, so it’s good.
I guess the lineup was decided behind closed doors…
Yeah, I mean doors that I could open but I really can’t be bothered. At this point I’m very satisfied with not knowing…
It’s exciting, because you didn’t know about the pairing until quite late in the day…
Yeah, we knew there was a possibility of it but we didn’t know we would.
So now you’re actually in the midst of the tour, are you feeling more blasé about it?
It’s not blasé, but it’s all about your actual experience on tour because there are so many subtleties that could make it suck but they’re not here – all subtleties point towards it being a really great experience. Like, straight away all of them were really nice and introduced themselves and were not intimidating – I mean, they’re intimidating as musicians but not as people so that’s a good thing. With the whole team that they’ve got working for them, you can tell the niceness kind of trickles down and everyone’s nice and helpful. That really helps, because it’s hard when you just feel like you can’t ask for a bottle of water, you can’t ask for anything and you’re just there ignoring them.
Yeah, and that’s all about the atmosphere created by the headlining band, isn’t it?
Yeah, it’s just about the atmosphere being really good, and the fact that they’ve given us plenty of time to sound check – normally the support doesn’t really get to sound check. They’ve just been really good. I mean, I guess it helps that it’s just a 2-band bill.
Yeah, it’s interesting because back in Australia of course you guys would be a headlining band but here you’re supporting Garbage on an international platform. What do you think you’re learning from them or even with them through that experience?
A lot. Again, when we first started touring – just little tours supporting Australian bands – you learn from the people you’re supporting about how to be good and professional, how to treat support bands, treat your crew and stuff like that. I think that kind of continues here, and you see musicians who have been doing what they do for over 20 years and they’re really nice – still! They’re not all tainted and bitter and diva-ish. I think that kind of proves that that’s definitely the best way to go about it – you’re not trying to have some power trip over people.
Especially for a lead singer, I’d assume it’s quite hard not to fall into that trap.
Yeah, it’s a struggle to tame the diva within… but we must try.
But, it’s legitimate on stage, isn’t it? I mean, if Shirley Manson toned it down on stage, people may start questioning her performance…
Well that’s the thing! She’s got to have this persona but not really BE it.
It’s the ultimate trick to be able to click into your other persona as soon as you step on or off the stage…
The stage is a powerful place. It can transform people, I reckon. Just quietly…
Are you talking about yourself or other performers as well?
Everyone. Anyone. Shirley Manson… I mean, look at when she comes on stage, it’s like, “Fuck… fuck ME!” Did you see her when she came on stage??
Yeah… of all the stage entrances…
…hers was the bomb!
Yeah, and she doesn’t even need to really DO anything …
She just walks on and like, “Yeah…”
Yeah, she just struts on and looks at the crowd as if she’s saying, “Yeah, go on then… adore me!”
I’d never seen them live – and I know she can sing on record but it doesn’t always translate live. And you know what, she came on at the first London show, and I went, “I don’t CARE if she can’t sing!” [laughs]
She can just stand there…
Yeah. That’s enough for me. And then she COULD sing and it was like, “Fuck! Alright! She’s great!”
Yeah, and she hasn’t really aged…
No! It’s mental!
I think she must love what she’s doing so much that it keeps her fit…
I think so.
And the energy she has is incredible, because it’s a long set…
Yeah, it’s a long set. It does provide inspiration when you see people you knew growing up – I was in year two: I was 6 or 7 when they released their first album.
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Before I forget, a guy in the audience wanted me to tell you that he loves your hairstyle…
Really? It’s quite bad at the moment. I’ve just let it go – I might just let it go forever…
…and he was talking about what a crazy music period the 90s was for kids in the UK, with the Britpop battle between Oasis, Blur, Pulp, the emergence of the Spice Girls…
We’re in Manchester talking about the 90s. That’s cool!
…and then there were much darker bands like Garbage and Placebo…
Yeah, alt sort of stuff – I feel like the word “alt” IS the 90s. And Doc Martens! These [points to the Docs she’s wearing] are fake because I don’t wear leather. I’m going to buy some vegan ones…
So, was 90s music a major influence on you?
I loved bands like Concrete Blonde and I did grow up with Garbage songs around – they were pretty massive, you couldn’t NOT have heard them. You see, I’m strange because I’m really influenced by the 90s, but I’m also one of those people who’s actually really into the 80s. I know that’s a paradox, but I’m really into the 80s. It’s a strange thing because – I don’t want to talk about Shirley Manson again but I did just have a conversation with her about all this stuff, and so it’s kind of relevant – Shirley was talking about whether it’s easier or harder for girls today in music, and she thinks it’s harder because something happened in the “noughties.” There were heaps of alternative girls in the 90s – the Alanis Morissettes, the Skunk Anansies (Oh, we’re also supporting Skunk Anansie by the way, which is funny…). But there were fewer females in the alt scene after the 90s. I guess the alt music and the darkness allowed women to come into a realm that wasn’t necessarily objectifying themselves – it was still sexy. But pop – where most women still are in music – is a different thing altogether. It’s arguably still objectification because a lot of them don’t write – they’re there for aesthetic purposes and I’m not saying aesthetics are a bad thing, but you know, but they’re good-looking and they sound “nice…”
So you’re basically saying that if Shirley Manson were to do now what she was doing back then, it would be harder for her maybe?
Maybe. There are still not a lot of alternative women – like, most women are still in pop I guess. I don’t know what happened. I think that maybe because the 90s was a bit of a reaction against the 80s, then there was a reaction against the 90s.
It’s very interesting because there is a timeless quality to tonight’s show….
I find them a timeless band – I do…
But BOTH bands have an air of timelessness. Maybe this goes back to the type of music? You both do quite different things but there is a connecting point, isn’t there?
Definitely. And although those things can draw from, say, a decade – like, if you looked at our band you’d probably say we draw from the 90s – musically, you can draw from everything and everywhere. I think a lot of the time people think the image of a band defines them but they often sound like a lot of things – like, Garbage are rock, pop, alternative…
…and they have transitioned a lot.
Exactly.
Congratulations on getting the support slot for Skunk Anansie, by the way – that’s so exciting!
Yeah, we have good people, angels watching over us…
So, is it a rock ‘n’ roll lifestyle on this tour? Pampering by hotels? Warnings not to trash rooms?
No, they just go: “Breakfast isn’t included…”
That’s tame…
I think it might be different for Garbage, but then again they’re not in a hotel – they’re in a bus. I don’t know where all these things come from. I think there was a generation of rock ‘n’ roll where the systems were not developed yet – that’s where the stereotype of throwing TVs out of windows comes from. You’ve got to remember that it was the 60s – things were happening, revolutions, etc. Now, we’re all postmodern – you can sort of do what you want… So musicians have become less rebellious…
Things have really changed – the commercial and independent industries which were traditionally at war have become almost one and the same, to the point where everything looks so clean-cut and commercialized…
And Adele is the pinnacle of both. She’s the biggest independent act – she’s great. She’s indie AND she’s the biggest-selling artist in the world. I mean, what can you say? I’m sure there’s some Christian artist that I’ve never heard of that’s bigger-selling but… Yeah, I think she’s good – I think she writes from the heart.
In terms of how female musicians are doing, some female musicians do talk openly about how important they feel it is for women to make their mark in this industry, but I’m always surprised by those who insist that it’s not an issue anymore…
They’re having a laugh, I think. It’s like history existed and it doesn’t just STOP when you make it official that we’re equal – it takes a long time to transform.
Right, but what I often hear is: “Well, we’ve got Adele now so everything’s fine…”
Yeah, but then you’ve got the argument about pop… There’s SO much to talk about… like why we commercialize “the other” – and that has been black people and women in the arts for a really long time. We’re so obsessed with buying this emotion of “the other” that maybe having successful women in the arts doesn’t necessarily suggest that it’s equal between the sexes at all. It’s like saying racism is not an issue in America because there are successful rappers. It’s just ridiculous. Rap music, black music, R&B dominates pop music but that’s arguably objectification by white consumers so it’s not necessarily significant…
And then you have commercially successful female artists like Nicki Minaj out there, who – going by her shows in the UK at least – boasts a very white following.
Yeah. Well I mean, Nicki Minaj is really white in a lot of ways as well. It’s like in the 50s and 60s when Elvis was blacking it up. Nicki Minaj is like Lady Gaga but slightly more tanned… she’s drawing on a lot of really white traditions as well. I think it kind of blurs. It certainly appeals to that demographic it seems…
Totally. But this is what you guys also have to deal with, isn’t it? You depend on people buying your music…
Yeah, you do.
So, how are you finding it in the UK now? Because when we met in Manchester the last time, you felt the press response to the band wasn’t great…
I still do, but it’s funny. It’s really because – like any human being, in human nature for some reason – insults stick more than compliments. There possibly ARE more compliments than insults, but when you get a criticism you notice it and you’re like, “Right, ok.” You don’t notice any of the good stuff. I also talked to a lot of other bands and the UK’s just hard and weird. Like, these guys [points to the other Jezabels] even in London were like, “We’ve never had a reception like this – what’s going on?” because, you know, you’ll go to any other place and people will be like, “Waaahhh!” and then you’re here and they just fold their arms.
If you look at INXS for example…
How they’re also Australian…
Yeah, they also had a rough time when they got going… It could be that Britain is difficult for certain bands to break?
It is difficult to break because it’s got a fickle industry and very critical people – I’m pretty sure they invented criticism. But that’s cool, I’m down with that. However, being an Australian in Britain, there is a kind of stigma, a kind of cultural cringe.
So do you hear the phrase “Australian band” being thrown around a lot?
A little bit. I think it came from one of our first reviews where people said, “I felt like I was watching Crocodile Dundee” or something…
No way! That’s quite severe…
And it was like, “Are you serious?? Really? Is that REALLY what you felt like – or did you just not come and know that we’re Australian?” Like literally, I don’t know how you could get that from us at all, apart from the accent and we hardly talk.
That’s just how irresponsible the media can be though. They might not even go see the band live, and might not even know who the band is…
Totally. They’ll just read a review and absorb it and that’s all they’ll know about that band. Yeah. If you read about this band, some people think we’re emos – which I find quite funny – but that’s more accurate than “Crocodile Dundee!” And I do have a black fringe, to be fair, but that’s about it…
They may have seen you at least!
Yeah, they saw a picture and they know our nationality… Exactly. But hey, it’s fine. I don’t mind being Australian, but the truth is that that whole aesthetic that people associate with Australia – the blokey, bogany Crocodile Dundee – is so wrong. I mean, Paul Hogan is to blame for many stereotypes. No one calls them shrimps, I’ll have you know! We call them prawns. And a few other things: none of us carry knives – it’s illegal; we don’t wear those hats; the majority of us live in cities and wear shoes; there are no kangaroos in our backyards; and we have women in our country – contrary to popular belief, there are some girls.
Well, now you’ve toured various corners of the globe, England must seem pretty provincial?
I love England – I love how they’re kind of bastards. It’s great. My Dad is Scottish and so I kind of have that hatred for England. But I also have love for the British people in general and how they have this dark humour and can just cut straight to the point, whereas you go to other places like America where they’re very “nice” but you’re not entirely sure of what they’re really thinking. So on any day, as much as I say it’s pretty hard in the UK for bands, you’d rather honesty.
At least you know where you stand. Like, you knew where you stood at that point, didn’t you, back in Manchester?
Yeah, we knew we were going to have to kick and scream in this country and we still do and that’s fine.
But you’re definitely more at ease this time round, aren’t you?
Well, we’re supporting…
Exactly, you don’t have that same pressure maybe…
I think we know we’re playing to music lovers on this tour. Garbage fans are a mix between alternative goths, really normal people, people who love music, and young people who’ve just discovered it and it’s not intimidating at all because it’s Garbage fans: they’re just awesome and weird – weird and awesome but also really normal. So we’re just like, “Yeah, it’s going to be fine.”
And you’ll get more attention now, won’t you, off the back of this tour?
Off the back of this, yes.
What impressed me the first time I met you guys at KOKO was how tight a team you are not just on stage but also backstage – Heather mentioned that the two of you pretty much grew up together…
Yeah, I’ve known her for probably 15 years, but we’ve been friends for about 10/12. And we’ve been doing this, writing together, for about 7 or 8 years and playing in this band for about 5.
Are you pretty much like sisters?
Yeah, it’s a bit more like sisters than friends even. It’s like… Heather.
Does that help in terms of honesty?
Not in a bad way – it’s just almost a taken-for-granted situation which is good and bad, but it is what it is.
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The Jezabels/Garbage lineup seems all the more appropriate when you look at that great piece you wrote for Q on misogyny in the music industry, and the recent report where Shirley Manson called the music industry a “dinosaur” and impressively halted an Atlanta show to throw out a male fan who punched a female fan. You’re both on a similar page when it comes to ethics…
I think that’s what I meant before. I haven’t followed her statements but I think I can just tell… You know what I mean? I mean, I don’t even know if that’s a gender issue – that’s just crazy that someone punched someone.
Yeah, she’s clearly not interested in hiding her views or hiding behind her stage persona even when she’s on stage – it’s cool that she suddenly let the “diva” fall to one side…
Well, if you can call it the “diva” element of someone like Shirley Manson, the cool thing is that it’s not a “pop” diva – it’s a “staunch” diva. I feel like that is all part of her whole thing – it just comes across. Like, I haven’t heard any quote but I already know what her views are. You know from her songs, her attitude and how she carries herself, the way she talks to girls, the way she talks to us – you can just TELL.
Do you think it’s important to ask yourself as a musician: “Who am I going to be? Am I going to be a role model for young kids? Am I going to behave professionally? Or am I going to be a brat?”
Very, I reckon. I mean there’s relevance to the rough rockstar or whatever. Because if music’s getting too sterile one day and everyone’s too professional, maybe there’ll be a wave of that coming and it’ll be very important. But I think you find out very quickly that musicians are not cool – they’re nerds. They’re very hardworking people. They might get involved in some substances at points, but generally they have to get visas all the time, be in a different country every day – that takes organisation and discipline. If you think about the actual reality of musicians’ lives, they’re not cool – they’re working very hard and not sleeping very much. They’re cool in another way but they’re not like rockstars. So I think it’s really important to realize the reality of it and how you’ve just got to wind your neck in…
Talking about keeping your feet on the ground: In your acceptance speech for the 2011 Australian Music Prize (Amp), you took the opportunity to make some excellent points on the principles behind the award, because there was really some bizarre controversy surrounding that…
That speech was actually in particular reference to the criticisms of the shortlist including us, Gotye, Kimbra – it‘s quite indie but successful indie. Do you know Triple J? It’s like the dominant alternative radio station in Australia – it’s government-funded and national. The shortlist for the Amp was called “Triple J friendly” so we were sort of getting criticised in amongst this group which a FEW bloggers called a “safe” shortlist – because it’s not supposed to be about commercial success, it’s supposed to be about excellence. But when we won that, the criticisms didn’t stop – they got worse and it was like, “Well, now you really are just picking on us…”
I guess those criticisms came from Australia, because there wasn’t much negative press about it over here…
Well here, we’re not successful – we’re just an emerging thing. Whereas there, I guess we don’t need help in people’s opinion and so they felt like we were actually TOO popular to perhaps win that award or something? I couldn’t quite work it out…
But your album did really well over there. So, if it’s an award for “excellence,” isn’t that still relevant?
This is the crux. A lot of people think that “excellence” and “popularity” are mutually exclusive. However, what I said specifically in that speech is that they’re not necessarily mutually exclusive. We recognised that there are a lot of people out there making albums, and we thanked people. Just because an album sold well doesn’t mean it’s not good, but I guess a lot of people think that if something’s commercially successful, it’s bad…?
I guess every country’s industry has different issues… But, how was the local media response to your speech? In the UK at least, the mainstream media aren’t generally interested in what artists have to say – it can even be the kiss of death for a band to voice their opinion.
See, Australia’s a little bit different. There is a little bit of a tall poppy syndrome in Australia actually, so if you show yourself to be a real person that’s down to earth and aware that you’re not the bee’s knees just because you’re semi-successful, they like you for it.
So why was it important for you to deal with the Amp criticism and put it out there?
Well, I wrote that before I knew we’d won it. They said, “The Amp’s coming up tomorrow. Write an acceptance speech in case it comes out so we can send it off to whoever, so it can come out as soon as it’s announced.” And it wasn’t really that we expected it, because we were over here and we weren’t in the hype of it all…
That’s right, you were here on tour…
But I think it’s just that you hear a lot of people assuming a lot of things about you, like: “You assume you deserve it (for a start). You assume that other people don’t deserve it. You don’t know anything about the industry. You don’t know anything about all the albums that came out. You’re just a dumb musician.” – there was a LOT of that being written. The whole criticism of the award was basically tailored to the idea that: “Musicians shouldn’t be allowed to be judges anymore because this is who is getting awarded this, and only critics and industry people should be allowed to, because they actually know what music’s about.” So, musicians were getting a pretty hard rap and so were we – we were getting really criticised and everyone was saying our album was crap. Well, not EVERYONE – this was just a few angry people. So we wanted to thank people but also acknowledge that it was a hard decision and you can’t please everyone.
But you weren’t ignoring it either, because that would certainly be tempting for a lot of bands…
Well that’s easier, definitely.
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If you were talking to yourself in the early days, what nuggets of advice would you give yourself?
Hmm… Part of me would say don’t read reviews because the good ones don’t satisfy you either.
Do the bad ones prey on you?
The bad ones annoy you because they never get it [laughs]. And the good ones, they don’t get it either because they were just ready to praise you, so it’s like, “Why am I not satisfied?” And then you realise that you will never be satisfied and that’s bad. So: Don’t read reviews.
What else have you learned, apart from keeping away from reviews?
Be nice to people …except Neil – don’t be nice to Neil! [laughs]
Your tour manager?
Find the whipping boy and only be mean to that person!! [laughs] It’s ok, it’s mutual [laughs]… No, seriously…
So, seriously, is there someone you can go rage to when things get on top of you? I guess you can’t really do that within the band, because you’re all in the same boat…
We get pretty negative sometimes. I would advise people to avoid negativity, but that’s not something I do – that’s something I SAY to do. I don’t know… I talk to my manager, I just vent and he just listens and then I go, “Sorry…” And he’s like, “That’s fine, as long as you don’t tell other people these things.”
Well, you guys have definitely won our award for the nicest band around…
HAYLEY: There you go!!
SAM: We’re actually really rude!! Do you want me to be rude to you..?? [room erupts in laughter]
Well, sure, if you want it on the record…?!
Ah yeah…
So do you always get on with each other all the time?
HAYLEY: Yeah, it’s just this all the time… [laughs]
SAM: It’s mostly like this…
So, what’s the most annoying thing that’s happened when you’ve been on tour?
Well, I think that “not-sleeping night” was good… We just recently played a show in Miami which started at 1am – we drove to the airport from the show to fly to New York so we landed out at 2:30am, checked in at 4am, flew at 6am, arrived at 8 or 9am, played at 12:30 or 12:50pm… and then we did press for the rest of the day! So, I think that when you actually book a schedule where you can’t sleep, that’s not good. That was a one-off.
So another valuable piece of advice: Try and fit sleep in.
Sleep’s good because you don’t get enough anyway on tour but when you literally don’t allow for it, that’s bad. And mealtimes – because the times when you haven’t been able to eat are the worst.
Yeah, people forget that being on stage and on tour can be very physically demanding…
You need to sleep. Yeah, sleeping and eating. And, another thing I’d say but don’t do is: Exercise – because that keeps you from being miserable.
Being on tour, it must seem endless and you must lose track of time – what do you do to get a break from the craziness?
Well, you get really obsessed with Wi-Fi. Like, if there’s no Wi-Fi you get really upset. You get quite anxious. Wi-Fi is important. And you get sick of the word “Wi-Fi” so you invent codes like “wing-wong.”
What did people do in the days they didn’t have the Internet?
Well, they were rockstars and they were known as arseholes because they slept with a lot of people, remember? Sex, drugs and rock ‘n’ roll. The internet allows monogamy to exist – coexist with rock ‘n’ roll.
It’s chilled it out. Ok, so internet safety…
Well, if monogamy is saving you… but, that’s a whole new discussion…
Top tip for a lead singer?
Warm up and warm down.
Vocally?
Yeah – sleep, rest. Actually: vocal rest. I’m actually really bad at vocally resting because I’m a talkative person, but yeah… Don’t drink – don’t drink too much. Be healthy, actually.
Wow, this is like a new generation of musicians isn’t it? Where have the rock-n-roll-trashing-hotel-room days gone?
No Wi-Fi back then! No Wi-Fi, no Spotify… no… What else ends with “-fi”?
Well, you’re doing really well back at home and the buzz is very good over here this time. Plus, Shirley Manson is promoting you!
Yeah! She is, actually!
Has Shirley given you any great tips?
You know what? It comes back to the question about how important role models are… just musicians in general but females as well. You learn a lot just talking to them and just seeing a band that’s a lot further progressed – Garbage have been around for a while. And Shirley was just like, “Don’t worry about it.” And that’s what every experienced musician says: “Don’t worry about it – you’ll never be happy with what people say about you anyway, so you just have to keep doing what you’re doing…”
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